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Thursday, October 04, 2007

Дорски јазик - антички грчки дијалект ... јазик на Античките Македонци ...

Пред некој ден ја зачнав темата со постот Македонците зборувале дорски јазик - антички грчки дијалект ... Темата ми се виде интересна за мојата неукост и решив да истражувам малку за изворот на веста ... секако истражувањето се однесува на интернет просторот ...

Музејот во Пела е место кое секој Македонец треба да го посети ... а ако сте по музеите од македонскиот периот кликнете тука ...

Сликата “” не може да се прикаже бидејќи содржи грешки.

"The finds, mainly from temples, show how these people lived ... we even found a curse which shows that the Macedonians spoke Doric, an ancient Greek dialect, from the 5th century BC," the official said.

"This is very important, also in political terms," she said.

In recent years, Greece has faced a challenge from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia over the spiritual rights to Alexander's heritage and has been at pains to stress that the ancient Macedonians were Greek.

... Ова е веројатно изворот на Утрински ... Но не се задоволив само со ова и продолжив да истражувам ...

- N.G.L.HAMMOND Professor of Greek University of Cambridge, “ ... His earlier position was that the Macedonians spoke a "patois which was not recognizable as a normal Doric Greek but may have been a north-west-Greek dialect of a primitive kind" (in other words he couldn’t say for sure). Later however, he changed this position and launched his "firm conclusion" that the Macedonians now spoke a dialect of Aeolic Greek, i.e. the ancient Macedonians were Greek, despite of the overwhelming and extensive research done by Badian and Borza which proved the opposite. Interestingly, he had done this ‘transformation’ towards firm Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, during the period when the modern Greek propaganda intensified in spreading their "Macedonians are Greek" position, a position which was later used against the part of the modern Macedonian nation that was in a process of getting independence (today’s Republic of Macedonia).

"We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4), and Thucydides described the Macedonians and other northern tribes as 'barbarians' in the sense of 'non-Greeks', despite the fact that they were Greek-speaking. (Thuc. 2. 80. 5-7; 2. 81. 6; 4. 124.1) When it comes to political controversy, it was naturally good invective to call the king a barbarian too. Thus a Greek speesh-writer called the Thessalians 'Greeks' and Archelaus, the contemporary Macedonian king, 'a barbarian'. Demosthenes spoke of Philip II as 'the barbarian from Pella'."
За Doric Greek ... протарашкав на Википедија ...

Doric Greek is an ancient branch of the Greek language. In classical times its dialects were spoken in the southern and eastern Peloponnese, Crete, Rhodes, some islands in the southern Aegean Sea, some cities on the coasts of Asia Minor, Southern Italy, Sicily, Epirus and Macedon.

It is widely accepted that Doric originated in the mountains of Epirus, northwestern Greece, the original seat of the Dorian Greeks. It was expanded to all other regions during the Dorian invasion (circa 1150 BC) and the colonisations that followed. The presence of a Doric state (Doris) in central Greece, north of the Gulf of Corinth, led to the theory that Doric had originated in northwest Greece or maybe beyond in the Balkans. However, exactly where the prehistoric border was, and whether it comprised the ancient Macedonians, remains unknown (see Pella curse tablet).

A school of thought maintains that Macedonian was a Greek dialect. Those who favour a purely Greek nature of Macedonian as a northern Greek dialect are numerous and include early scholars like H. Ahrens and O. Hoffmann. ...

Интересен линк е и написот на википедија:

Сликата “” не може да се прикаже бидејќи содржи грешки.

Pella Katadesmos, presumably public domain

The Ancient Macedonian language was the tongue of the Ancient Macedonians. It was spoken in Macedon during the 1st millennium BC. Marginalized from the 5th century BC, it was gradually replaced by the common Greek dialect of the Hellenistic Era. It was probably spoken predominantly in the inland regions away from the coast. It is as yet undetermined whether the language was a dialect of Greek, a sibling language to Greek, or an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages.

Knowledge of the language is very limited because there are no surviving texts that are indisputably written in the language, though a body of authentic Macedonian words has been assembled from ancient sources, mainly from coin inscriptions, and from the 5th century lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria, amounting to about 150 words and 200 proper names. Most of these are confidently identifiable as Greek, but some of them are not easily reconciled with standard Greek phonology. The 6,000 surviving Macedonian inscriptions are in the Greek Attic dialect.

The Pella curse tablet, a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella in 1986, dated to between mid to early 4th century BC, has been forwarded as an argument that the ancient Macedonian language was a dialect of North-Western Greek, part of the Doric dialects (O. Masson, 1996). Before the discovery it was proposed that the Macedonian dialect was an early form of Greek, spoken alongside Doric proper at that time (Rhomiopoulou, 1980).

Интересни написи ... има и други ...

Is there any reference by Demosthenes to an incident that can lead us to conclude that he and his fellow Athenians believed that Macedonians indeed spoke a greek dialect?
Yes. Demosthenes in a speech of his (in Greek: PERI THS PARAPRESBEIAS[On the Embassy?] 197,229) described an incident in which Frynonas, an Athenian, while traveling to Olympia had his luggage taken by Macedonian soldiers. Frynonas acted later as an Athenian ambassador to Philippos II. Philippos II ordered his soldiers to return the taken property to Frynonans and apologized for his soldiers not knowing that that time was a period of religious festivities. Had the Macedonian soldiers not spoken a
greek dialect Philippos II would have used that as an excuse, Demosthenes would have been very keen to pointing this out in his speech, and taken up with great delight, as we may guess, the opportunity to accuse not only Philippos but also his soldiers of
barbarian behavior. Nevertheless, he didn't do that because he
knew that the Macedonians spoke a greek dialect.
No lack of understanding between the Macedonians and the Athenians at that time (at the time that the alleged "hellenization" of Macedonians was about to begin) has been reported in any ancient text.
Demosthenes, as an ambassador of Athens visited Macedonia twice. This happened before his now famous (or infamous) speeches against Philippos. During his two visits and afterwards never complained of Macedonians being "barbarians", or speaking a non-greek language. On the contrary we was dazzled by the riches of
the palace of Philippos in Pella.

Is it possible [ignoring historic evidence that shows that this was not the case] that Macedonians had spoken a non-greek language before 340BC and within a 10-20 year period every Macedonian was fluent in the attic dialect?...

На сличен начин е пишано и тука ...

За да не биде постот бајаги долг ке продожам со прикажување на линкови во коментарите ...

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